From: EvilWickedBunny@netscape.net (Sue)
Subject: Re: Tarot and Qabalah (was...)
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 07:22:12 GMT
In article, [X]
wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:12:38 -0700, "Asiya"
> wrote:
>
> >"[X]" wrote in message
> >news:iqr6ausrfglb1fgle4qdn5n9rlg212fut7@4ax.com...
> >> On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 02:59:24 -0700, "Asiya"
> >> wrote:
> >> >"[X]" wrote in message
> >> >news:5ti5ausp2fs69rvep21qp408up2v6d3cb2@4ax.com...
> >> >> On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:16:02 -0700, "Asiya"
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I suppose it depends on what deck you use, and what you apply it
> >> >> >towards. Rider-Waite and Thoth were designed with the Qabalah
> >> >(among
> >> >> >other things) in mind, which shaped the meanings of the cards.
> >Many
> >> >> >modern decks are based off of those two decks. That makes it
> >quite
> >> >> >difficult to not take into account the Tarot-Qabalah
> >relationship,
> >> >> >because it is inherent.
> >> >> >If one uses an older or post-modern deck, then "non-Qabalistic
> >> >> >approach" makes sense.
> >> >>
> >> >> As I said in a previous post, the Waite deck is perfectly fine
> >> >without
> >> >> a qabalistic approach. And so is the Thoth deck.
> >> >
> >> >What is the source of your divinatory meanings?
> >>
> >> I mostly follow Waite, whose meanings are similar to the versions
> >> before him. James Revak did an interesting comparison of Waite's
> >> meanings with Mathers and Etteilla.
> >
> >Yeah, they incorporated the Qabalah into Tarot too, shaping their
> >meanings.
>
> They mostly used traditional meanings then extant. If you believe they
> changed meanings to accord with qabala then you should be able to cite
> all the cards in Waite you think are influenced by qabala and state
> why. I think you'll find that the influence of qabala is slight, and
> virtually non-existent in the Minor Arcana. Even in the Majors it is
> mostly rearranging the mantelpiece on a few cards. Compare with
> Marseilles deck. Or do you believe the Marseilles deck is qabalistic
> too?
Well, Waite obviously thought the influence of qabalah was significant enough for him to change the attribution of The Fool from Shin (where Wirth had placed it) to Aleph - which then made the Magician correspond to Beth, etc. Without any other changes, this assigment of Aleph to the Fool offset each of the qabalistic attributions that Levi had assigned prior to Wirth placing The Fool (Shin) between XX (Judgement) and XXI (The World).
But Waite made further changes to Wirth's ordering of the Trumps - Waite placed Justice as Trump XI (while Wirth had placed Justice as Trump VIII)
and Strenth to Trump VIII (while Wirth had Strength placed at Trump XI).
Why would Waite have made such changes if the influence of qabalah wasn't significant enough to support it?
--
"...and it seems to have a vague, haunting mass appeal..."
To: alt.magick,alt.tarot,alt.divination
From: EvilWickedBunny@netscape.net (Sue)
Subject: Re: Tarot and Qabalah (was...)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 09:59:11 GMT
In article, [X]
wrote:
> Yes, I know how qabalists look at it, my point was that this was an
> overlay and there is nothing inherently qabalistic about Waite's Minor
> Arcana in the design or the attributed meanings. To prove your point
> you'll need to cite specific qabalistic influences in the design of
> the pictures (which are simply mnemonic drawings for traditional
> divinatory meanings) or in the meanings Waite gives. Even Robert Wang
> in "The Qabalistic Tarot", where he compares Waite's deck to the
> Golden Dawn, Thoth, and Marseilles decks, notes that Waite simply
> provides divinatory Minor Arcana cards and points to no explicit
> qabalistic symbolism in the design or meanings. If Waite wished to
> produce an overtly "qabalistic deck" he was mightily restrained.
All forms of symbolism in Waite's deck can be considered 'an overlay'.
Alchemical influences are an overlay. Astrological influences are another.
Numerology, colors, picture content, etc. - all just more types of
"overlay". Are all the influences in Waite's symbolism overt? Just because it doesn't jump out at you and hit you over the head with a hammer doesn't mean you should completely discard the possibility that it is present.
Waite cared enough to include qabalistic influences in his Major Arcana.
It seems possible that there would also be qabalistic influences in his Minor Arcana as well - maybe those influences simply aren't as overtly presented as those in the Majors. It is even quite possible that Waite purposely chose not to make any overt representations of qabalistic influences to his Minor Arcana.
Waite wished to produce a deck that would present what he would wish it to present. Study the type of stuff that Waite had studied before he caused Pamela Colman Smith to illustrate his tarot deck. Then factor in the works Waite had published (and also those he translated) before he published his
"and finalized his deck. Include Waite's personal history that might have influenced his concepts for his own tarot deck. Take into account that Waite has indicated within some of his writings that he has certain knowledge for which he has taken some type of oath of silence.
It should be quite clear from the fact that Waite was a member of the Golden Dawn that his conceptualization of tarot was influenced by the tradition of that organization - and that tradition includes qabalistic influences within the entire tarot deck. With that in mind, it is
reasonable that one should be able to find some kind of connection to qabalistic influence within the cards.
>
> Apart from the fact that the pip cards were given pictures to
> illustrate the meanings, there is no substantial difference between
> his Minors and those of an earlier acknowledged non-qabalistic deck.
> This was my point. If, however, you are saying that even the earlier
> tarot decks are also qabalistic because of coincidental things such as
> 10 sephira then I'm afraid I simply don't accept that the evidence is
> good enough and neither does Gershom Scholem. You may as well say an
> ordinary deck of 52 playing cards is qabalistic. I fully realise that
> qabala can be applied to many things, but the argument was about
> specific influences in the Waite deck, not what can be read into or
> imposed on the given structure, that is a different argument
> altogether.
What I'm trying to relate to you is that Waite's deck is not only part of the history of all forms of tarot, but is also a part of the tradition of occult tarot. As such, knowledge of the occult tarot tradition/history should be considered before deciding that the qabalistic influences within Waite's deck can be disregarded - in either the Major Arcana "the
Minor Arcana. The qabalistic influences are present because Waite himself was influenced by a lot of things, including (but not limited to) the Golden Dawn, which happened to instruct its members about the occult tarot (as they conceptualized it) as part if its necessary course of study.
I can agree with you that the illustrations within Waite's Minor Arcana may not immediately bring qabalistic influences to one's attention, but it still seems probable to me that the artwork of each of those cards
contains some form of qabalistic connection just the same. As an example, I pulled out Waite's 3 of Swords to see if there was some possible
qabalistic connection to the symbolism he chose for the card:
Center of card - big, giant red heart pierced by three swords. A heart pierced by up to seven swords is the symbol of the Sorrowful and
Immaculate Heart of the Virgin Mary in the Catholic tradition. (Waite was raised as a Catholic.) The four threes in the Minor Arcana represent the third Sephirah, Binah. Binah is associated with the Great Mother in all her forms - and Mary is considered one of those forms. It may not be overt, but the relationship to a qabalistic connection is there in the central symbol.
--
"...and it seems to have a vague, haunting mass appeal..."
